DE Mom Talking With Her ART/ObGyn about Language

I saw my OB/Gyn yesterday for routine check-up.  He is moving totally out of OB work and focusing now on what he has long been involved in – ART.

He is the first to ever say DE to me.  At first, I was referred to his “partner” at the time, my Dr was only “assisting” in those procedures then.  

Now, my Dr has opened an ART office in our mid-western suburb and has announced that he will discontinue the OB practice (he said he has a few babies yet to deliver), but will keep his long-time patients who don’t need those OB services, for GYN treatment.  I love the heck out of this guy; and so, I am happy to follow.  After all, he did get me successfully through 2 high risk pregnancies.

Yesterday, he was asking about the kids, and telling his nurse asst, that I was his “oldest” mom ever - and still.  He actually seemed surprised to hear I was 50 when I delivered my son.  We talked about our egg donor, and of the kid’s “casual” familiarity with her.  They clearly know that she IS special to us.

I gently corrected him, when he called her their “biological mother”, by saying quietly “genetic”.  Hopefully, it will be the LAST correction he ever needs.  It’s his total sweetness, that allows my own quick forgiveness.  He meant “nothing” wrong.  I was a “good” one to make such a language error with.

Debbie, from the original Falling Leaves, Autumn Sunshine, Sunshine Family groups.

DE Moms Talking To Their Kids in 2011

Or talking to your friends, family, doctors ?
Let me know if you'd like to join the conversation and what you'd like to add.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Please contact me directly at SAXEL95@AOL.COM.

NYC MOM talks to her SON and about DE

We had a very interesting conversation about donor egg after dinner one night last month.  I think this conversation touches on so many different aspects of DE (science, genetic traits, nature vs nurture, what's a "mother.")  And it only took 5 minutes.   Probably the last time we discussed it was six months before.
 
I asked him if he would help me read the elephant book to his little brother.  I told him I'd like his help to try to explain to his brother who is age two and a half, how much I wanted a baby and how a doctor helped us.  We talked a lot more about the "donor" than we ever had before.  Before this night, I don't think I ever used the word "donor", just a special lady who gave the doctor an egg so that the doctor could help us get pregnant.   


He was asking if he had any of my genes ("just maybe a few?" he asked, hopefully) and I said that he has some traits that are from me because he grew in my womb and because he lives with me, but they aren't technically from genes.  Then he asked if the donor had green eyes, like him.  (I couldn't remember!  I said "I think so, but I'll have to check").  He asked how I'd check, since we didn't meet her.   


I explained that even though we didn't meet her (I used the term anonymous, he knows what that means), the doctor met her and she also filled out a form with some information about her, which I kept (somewhere).  He volunteered, "I bet I have some traits from daddy, some from the donor, some from you, mommy, and some from being created in a petrie dish!!"  Yes, probably you do!    He proposed that "sixty-percent of all children who are made in a petrie dish become very interested in science."   He said he wants to become a chemist and an inventor when he grows up and that he's going to invent a lot of websites.  One of the websites will be a community where donors and families can connect "and chat to eachother."  (He's been spending time on Club Penguin and also has his own home page on shelfari.com, a reading community)  So I asked, did he want to connect with his donor?   "Sure!" he said. I told him that some donors don't want to meet the families they helped but they were very happy to help couples who wanted babies by donating "just a cell" from their bodies.  They didn't consider it creating a child, just donating an egg and helping a couple who needed one. 


I told him that the other evening, I went to dinner with other mothers who made their babies with an egg from a donor.  He said, "Really?  Wow!"  I guess I should bring him to one of those DE family gatherings.   At some point in the conversation, he called the donor an "ex-mother" GASP!  Where does he come up with this?? (he did not call her HIS "ex-mother", mind you, just AN ex-mother).   I said (extremely calmly, by the way) that the donor is not a mother, just a donor, and I asked him what he thinks a "mother" is.  And he said a mother is " a mom you grow up with."  He asked me if I wanted to meet the donor.  I said that if I ever met her, I would like to say "Thank you for helping us make our son!"  (neatly side stepping the question..., don't you think?)
 
That's about it!

Eggsploitation 2.4.11 and Why I Went

Heres why I went.I wanted to present our interests and be able to open the door for others to speak as well.I asked more questions rather than coming out for our side as I did not think being confrontational was the right approach for my first time at an event like this but rather I could reinforce to you all that we need more of our voices to be heard on this.
I'm passionate about the topic of third party reproduction and reproductive rights in general butthis goes deeper for me. It really is about my kids and maybe yours too if you're on here. 
Of course I believe in the good in the profession, good doctors, other caring practitioners, etc...but this is also how I feel about just seeing the trailor for the film online.
How about the subtitle- egg donation a dirty little secret. As a parent, perhaps as a former donor yourself or infertility patient, about the activities of the religious right and what they say about us (Shark Tank girl for one, see my Twiblings article comments as well). 
I don't believe this will go away if we don't fan it. Naral and NOW have been pretty quiet these last several yrs and where are we now? Huff post article that the 1st piece of legislation to beaddressed after the healthcare bill in the new congress is to pass a bill refining RAPE. Just myopinion.
Here's an informal review. This is all off the top of my head, notes elsewhere, more later.
I attended the 2 screenings in NYC yesterday,Fordham daytime, Columbia evening. 
One de mom friend joined me at each, and a film friend of mine joined me at Fordham, and DrNancy Carroll-Freeman,de mom of twins who ison the education committee of ASRM came toColumbia. Saw no one else I knew from our circles, small turnout at each. 20-30 ppl, 1 personbesides Lahl made up the panel,her side of the argument.
I was there yesterday in NYC for both screenings and there was a representative from NOW on the Columbia panelists and she was more an advocate of the film and Jennifer Lahl than I personally would have hoped. Kathleen Sloan,also on the board of Center for Responsible Genetics. Perhaps you already knew about the NOW person. has spoken to this as a human rights issue to the UN.BTW-Shark Tank Girl was there with a picket sign for her website and her mission as clearly stated at the screenings as “ending ALL art and reuniting children with their real (donor) parents as they go on their spiritual journey of ….” Jennifer Lahl said that is her next film project.They became fast friends right then and there.
I will be looking at the legitimacy of the film award, not known by a film friend. I was civil andlevel, as neutral as I could be in my questioning until Shark tank girl-well ,I only took one little pot shot,couldn't help it. When I asked is there a model by which ART is practiced elsewher
that they think is done according to their standards and that they would consider acceptable and I got an answer that made no sense-it might have,but it was just blah blah blah, nothing substantive. Which was when Shark Tank girl chimed in on how in other countries there is a homestudy done just like they do for adoption, to see if it’s a home and family fit to be parents. Mypot shot was-maybe they also do a better job of screening (this girl supposedly passed throughand donated twice herself). I reminded the Panel that I was asking about all ART and not just Donors and that in adoption there are different risks & liabilities for placing an existing child compared to who is entitled by law to have children through any form of reproduction.
Lahl said she is not trying to end all ivf,just mistreatment of donors, but then also says to end all art until they figure out the effects from all of it on women and-ready for this-the environment, and then in turn on all of us. 
No one from the business was there. My RE said he would have but had theater tickets for that night (it wasn’t much notice when I asked him).
The additional piece in NYC that was brought up both times was that NY State is the first to pass a bill compensating donors for stem cell research (and hence taking advantage of the poorer populations of women who would be enticed by the $). 
Lahl insists that she is not a Trojan horse for the religious right and was very upset that she was mis-quoted by the journalist, as journalists are known to do. She said she hears from women all the time so saying 3 people in the film does not represent the whole industry or that there are many more is not accurate. 
There was a medical writer there that had mentioned this and I spoke with her after the film, Marion Dreyfus, who writes about the women's global health issues, has a friend that paid a lotof money for his wife to get a donor and that's how she came to this. 
I spoke to the woman from NOW at Columbia and Marion the medical writer at Fordham, about the myth that the compensation is as high as the inflammatory numbers (and that recipients are all rich snobs) and language around designer babies and elite donors,that that's not the norm or the average. Lahl said ASRM guidelines don't mean anything when they recommend no more than $8-10,000, if I still have that correct. Anything I said about ASRM was poo-pooedas being part of the $6.5B industry that has their interest in keeping the dirty secret going.
For the 3 women in the film,how many more have to lose their ability to have children. Lahl admitted the screening venues are college campuses where donor recruiting is done.
The phrases used over and over were these:
Informed consent-either not given it or too young to understand it.
Longitudinal studies on (horrendous, life-threatening) health risks.
Taking advantage of women-the definition of eggsploitation a classic-if its on the website (let'sjust pick it apart for what it is and why shouldn't the medical community defend itself?)
Off label use of lupron. I did not get to ask how many drugs out there are also used regularly as off-label.
Regulation-I’m in favor of more openness as well as a registry of some kind if it can ever be done properly. They kept saying the donor is USED AND THEN FORGOTTEN. That really upset me.
And of course, the good ole-we’re the wild west of reproductive medicine, egg brokers, selling eggs. I have more notes and one other donor mom that I know attended each screening as did my film friend so I hope to have more to share.
One man who came late and left after his statement in which he said he was the chief of medicine at columbia (I will google and see if I can catch a photo to verify),said that anytime money is involved between a doctor and 2 parties there is a conflict of interest. Columbia had more attendance, more interest from audience and seemed on the left and because they were in a law school setting they were asking questions about malpractice insurance ratios globally as well asactual liability and responsibility-like medical mistakes happen and doctors don't want to mess up for many reasons, not just $.
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My Friend Halle talks to her daughter and friend about DE

Halle is another mom of 6 yr twin girls. She replied to "Don't ask Dont tell with this story (and she's one of the few people I know that speaks openly about donor and third party reproduction):

"Over the weekend Dani was telling her friend that "first she was in another ladies belly and then she was put in my belly".  Her friend asked "So do you have two mommies?"  I jumped in "No, only one Mommy.  A mommy is the person that takes care of you everyday.  The one that feeds you and dresses you and buys you things.  That's a Mommy.  The other lady is called a "Donor".  The girls seemed happy with that explanation.  I believe that is how they learn.  By others asking questions and just generally being comfortable with it. 

Families are created so many different ways now.  I think people judge less and less."

Thanks, Halle!

So, tell us your story. If you'd like to share please contact me at Saxel95@aol.com.

Thanks and best to all,

The End of Don't Ask Don't Tell?

Happy New Year to all! One of my resolutions for 2011 is to grow The New York City Gathering and to continue to be responsive to the needs of all our members. I want everyone reading this to know that ALL people who are considering third party reproduction or are on the path to having children this way, as well as those actually involved in third party parenting, are welcome to The NYC Gathering’s events, workshops, dinners and discussion groups. My goal is to create a community for our families

Now, down to business: In 2010 we saw a few signs of public acceptance of Third Party Reproduction and Parenting and a few signs of how far we still need to go. When I started the NYC Gathering nine years ago, a respected friend told me that in twenty years this will be no big deal. Almost halfway there, I’m sad to say that this might not be. None of us at that first meeting on October 2002 would have guessed that in 2010 Arizona and Oklahoma would have had a vote on whether to put a ban on donor compensation, or that in 2009 Missouri would vote on whether to put donor names on birth certificates. On a positive note, who would have ever thought  that we’d see an HBO special “A Family Is” featuring gay celebrity adoption mom Rosie O’Donnell, loosely based on Marlo Thomas’s work in “Free to be a Family.”

In 2010, I heard many personal criticisms about my choices online, in person, from all kinds of people. Smart people who said to me: “Why do you have to tell your kids about this?”, or right in front of my kids, “Donor egg, I could never do that”. One professional with a deep interest in this field wondered if I’m just a little too public, and said maybe outing my kids is not such a good idea. Unfortunately, it’s not only the Internet-stalking crazy people I have to worry about, but the general population and their perceptions of Third Party Reproduction.

Online, I’ve been criticized for shoving a script down my kids’ throats about differentiating between egg donor and mom. They insensitively offer to comfort my kid in place of me, when she can’t find her “other mother.”   These people are clueless about the fact that in our home we encourage our kids to share their feelings. We encourage them to find and be the best of themselves they can possibly be and create their own definition of family. They will definitely be able to think and do for themselves because I wouldn’t have it any other way and neither would they!

In this week’s NY Times Magazine section there was a wonderful first person narrative written by Melanie Thernstrom about how she and her husband, Michael, had two children with the help of an egg donor and two surrogates. She was proud of her decision to go this route and disclose it to all, no matter what the repercussions might be. Bravo for her courage! Sadly, she is in the minority. Too few heterosexual couples are coming out about Third Party Parenting. perhaps because they feel it will invite judgment. This article garnered a robust 326 comments within its first twelve hours online, outpacing other hot-topics such as tax cuts, abortion, gays in the military and Wikileaks.

 I hope you didn’t miss Peggy Orenstein’s column in the Times Magazine section, “The Way We Live Now” column a few months ago about the “Think Pink” movement, and how years ago women who had breast cancer had to stay in the closet. Substitute third party reproduction/infertility for breast cancer and her 70's comparisons were right on the mark for where public acceptance and awareness of assisted reproductive technology are and how the fertility industry treats the hetero families they help create.

I was born in 1961 and remember in the 70’s, whispering the words divorce, black, cancer, gay and adopted. But we still can't even whisper donor conception, unless you've suffered a long and horrible road (with no disrespect to severe infertility folk intended). Ok, yes, we're shouting it privately amongst ourselves, but that’s about it.

Older moms received a lot of press in 2010. There was a nice article on becoming an older mom on living.health.com. The photo was bizarrely retouched to accentuate the silver-hair of a woman holding a baby. Donor-conception was mentioned as practically eliminating the biological clock. It was on the transcript of The Joy Behar Show with Joan Lunden on CNN. A sincere thanks to Dr Grifo, I really liked his honesty about fertility education. But according to the transcript, the mental health professional on that program didn’t even mention donor. What does that tell you??? Just think of the Travoltas, SJP and so on. No, celebrities don’t have to be the ones to come out and lead the way for the rest of us. I get that.

But the lines between privacy and secrecy are increasingly blurred, and most donor parents I know say it’s their kids’ story to tell. I really try to respect that--I'm not saying I don't. I just HAVE TO be the one to say it’s OUR story to tell because if I don’t, if I pretend its a non-issue when the rest of the world is so very open to just about everything else, then I fear that by the time my kids grow up they will deep down feel that there is something wrong with them. To me that equals stigma and shame. A subtle message, but a painful one nonetheless, as everything else is so openly discussed today other than donor conception. That’s problematic for me and I think it’s problematic for my kids.

In 2010, I saw The Kid, an Off-Broadway hit about a gay couple seeking to adopt. I loved the music, the lyrics, and the message. It didn't matter to me that its a gay story. It is the exact same story I have heard about TTC via donor conception and the infertility rollercoaster, including what it does to people and relationships, and what it takes to stay whole as a couple and a family, before, during and (hopefully) after kids. I saw two people speak to each other about the high cost of not having their own working ovaries and loving each other regardless, even in those horrible moments when they don’t know which way any cycle or pregnancy will go until they take home a baby. And on the other side of this story is the fact that the gay population have come along way trying to achieve their own acceptance, and are still fighting for equality today. They are now the leaders behind the anti-bullying movement and I applaud them.

Over the past eight years, I’ve met a broad range of incredible couples and individuals on this journey. Choice moms and gay families. Even this year’s film “The Kids Are All Right” showed us that gay families are like everyone else and pretty mainstream, almost passé, “No Big Deal“ according to a Sunday Styles piece in the NY Times. Sometimes I think I’ll never fit in anywhere, and I fear that my kids will feel the same. I hope and pray every day, and work fiercely to create a safe community for donor-conceived and surro families, so my kids won't feel alone and wonder why no one ever cared how they felt when people whisper, “Donor egg. I could never do that…..” You fill in the rest.

October 7 Voice America Show on Disclosure of Donor Origins to Children

Theresa Erickson,Conceptual Options, Ericksonlaw.com is hosting a radio show on Voice America. All shows are archived and there is an interesting and informative variety available and to be aired over the next several months.

On October 7th, I was a guest on the show to talk about The NYC Gathering and Disclosure of Donor Origins, along with Marna Gatlin of PVED.ORG and Megan Erickson, Theresa's Daughter.

Theresa hosted a great show and made my first public interview and radio experience (since the Sunday Morning Puzzle with Will Shortz and Leeann Hansen on NPR 20 yrs ago) both comfortable and enlightening.

Marna shared her insights and mission for PVED.org and has done tremendous work  supporting the families involved in egg donation and the on-going OPEN discussion she is creating in our community.

Thanks so much to Megan Erickson who shared a side of egg donation not often heard from and indeed one person who has so much to offer others and is willing to share it. Theresa, Megan and Marna-what great examples of what strong families can be.



http://www.voiceamerica.com/voiceamerica/vepisode.aspx?aid=49165
http://www.voiceamerica.com/voiceamerica/vshow.aspx?sid=1767

Conversation with Diane Ehrensaft October 10, 2010

I've been talking with Diane Ehrensaft (author of "Mommies, Daddies, Donors, Suggogates") about Birth Others, Genetic Others, ages and stages of disclosure (see post from our NYC Gathering Womens Dinner in January with Diane where we discussed ages and stages of disclosure).

Diane coined the term "birth other"--which includes both donors and surrogates/gestational carriers (who are not genetically related) . My term for egg donors is "genetic others" since they didnt do the birthing.


The "young scientists" are the young school age kids who are interested in how things work rather than the complicated psychological implications. That comes later.

Diane strongly recommends having someone talk to classrooms and train teachers so that the children from assisted reproductive families do not feel like outliers (MY BIGGEST ISSUE AROUND THIS) and the issues apply to all children and the different ways of building families.
All parenthood involves loss-loss of nonparenthood life, loss of sleep, loss of fantasies as they are are replaced by the real child.  

For those parents who have dealt with fertility problems, there may be the loss of having a genetically related child. For those parents missing a parent to have a baby with, there may be a feeling of a missing parent, who a donor cannot be. As long as people know it comes with the territory, they don't have to sweep the feelings under the rug.

What Diane wants parents to know is

1) that they will creatively draw their own family map and then navigate within it; there is no one boiler plate; 2) dishonesty never pays; 3) authenticity does; 4) at the same time, there can be tiers of disclosure and layers of privacy; 5) children are incredibly adaptable organisms, and all children have something to deal with; a birth history that involved assisted reproductive technology is one of those things to deal with, and can be done with pride and good feeling, as long as parents leave room for the full gamut of their children's feelings (and their own); 6) at the time, parents should carve out separate space to work through their own raw feelings, if they surface, so that what reaches the child are metabolized and empathic responses, rather than torn or conflicted ones.

October 7 Radio Show http://www.ericksonlaw.net/surrogacy-law-radio

The Surrogacy Lawyer Radio Program- Thursday at 11am PDT


October 7, Theresa Erickson will interview her guests (Sara, Marna and Megan) about disclosure for both donor-conceived children and (non-donor conceived) children of egg donors


Prospective parents who utilize third party reproductive technologies like egg donation must answer many questions as they move through the decision-making process. How should they choose an egg donor? Should the donation be known or anonymous? If, when and how should they disclose information to their child and others? Additionally, egg donors need to consider whom they will tell about their donation, especially their current or future children.


In the second part of a two-part series on donor disclosure, Theresa Erickson will discuss these and other questions on The Surrogacy Lawyer: Your Guide to IVF and Third Party Reproduction in an episode entitled “The Two Sides of Donor Disclosure,” that will air on Thursday, October 7 at 11AM PST/2PM EST on Voice America.


Surrogacy lawyer, author and radio host Theresa Erickson will be interviewing Marna Gatlin, founder and CEO of Parents Via Egg Donation (PVED); Sara Axel, founder of the NYC Gathering and a parent of twin six-year-old girls conceived through egg donation; and Megan Erickson, law student and Theresa Erickson’s daughter.


“Disclosure often is the elephant in the room,“ says attorney Erickson. “All parties know it is important, but also realize it is one of the hardest issues to address. Intended parents need to wrestle with determining whom should they tell, what information their children need to know and when they should learn it. Then there is the other side of the coin of how the egg donor should handle disclosure. As a former egg donor, I have had this conversation with my children, one of whom will relay her feelings about this.”


http://www.ericksonlaw.net/surrogacy-law-radio

My just right donor, by L

It was a warm day forDecember, and my husband and I were on our way to make a very importantchoice. We were on our way toreview potential donors with our clinic and expected to choose one during thistrip.


A little background: we were cycling at an out-of-town clinic about 200 miles from our home for three reasons: 1) it was less expensive; 2) we reallyliked the doctor and one of my closest friends had a personal friendship with him and also used him for her fertility problems; and 3) this clinic allowedyou to choose your donor from a book of potential clinic donors. That was very different than the clinics here in New York, who picked your donor for you. And that was definitely appealing to us, and was one of the major reasons we decided to cycle out of town.


We had decided not to usean agency donor, because I felt like I could find someone appealing and didn’tfeel strongly that I needed to find the “perfect” donor.


I knew one thing: I didn’t want to meet my donor or seean adult picture of her. I hopedto have children that were genetically related to her; and when I looked atthem, lovingly, as they grew, changed and developed, children I consider mychildren solely (okay, and my husband’s too) despite the gene pool, I didn’twant to see someone else, someone who essentially was disconnected from us andour lives completely, looking back at me.


So here we are, on afour-hour car ride, with an appointment to look at “the book.” My husband and I share ourthoughts: what should we lookfor? What are the most importantattributes of this woman, who was going to perhaps give us the most significant thing we ever received?


First, we focused onlooks. And we agreed she didn’tneed to look like me, but the main things, like coloring, etc. needed to besimilar to mine so that our child, or children, would, to the casual observer,look like they could be mine.

Then, we focused on health. That, we agreed, was non-negotiable. Then,intelligence. We agreed she neededto be a college student or a college graduate, with a job that indicated she was above average in IQ. Andage. I don’t remember exactly what we determined, but something around 24-25 – not too young, not tooold. And a “proven” donor would be a bonus.


And that, we agreed, were the main factors. We pictured a young career woman, on her way to a life of “having it all.”


We get into town, and, thenext day, we are given the “Caucasian” book. There were around 25 or 30 profiles in the book. They told us to review it and that wecould select up to 3 proflies to hold for 24 hours. Thereafter, we could either select one, or select none and then return in a few weeks to see any new potential donors.


We were sent to a room,alone, with this thick blue binder. Each profile was 14 pages, hand written, and asked all sorts of factualquestions about the donor, her life, health, family, family health history,pregnancy and fertility history, and the like. There were also, on the last page, short essays. It was a lot of information, on the onehand, but so little, too.


We went through the bookand flagged all the college grads and a few college students. One by one, they dropped off. Too many casual sexual encounters. Questionable family healthhistories. Some women whosemotivations seemed less than ideal to us. Women who didn’t seem to have the time or interest to fill out the 14pages. After going through thewhole book, we had a few maybes. But no one that felt right.


A second glance through the binder. One profile caught my eye.I shared it with my husband. Awoman, 28 years old, a mother of two. Last job was in a pizza shop. Education stopped after high school. We pull it out. Read it once, twice. So,she didn’t go to college. So, shewas 28 years old. Not what wethought we were looking for. But the answers to her essay questions were clear and well thought out. She took pride in what she wrote and expressed herself well. No, notwhat we were looking for. Butthere was something about her. We put her in the maybe pile.

That night, we stayed at my friend’s house. I asked her tolook at the three profiles we had brought with us. Without a word, she read the three, and handed me one,saying…I like her. Pizzawoman, we called her that night, until she became “our donor” who she is tothis day.


What did we like? Her maturity. Her appreciation for being a parent. Her earnestness, and sincerity. She seemed nice, real, solid. Not perfect, but very human. And, for some reason, kind and giving.

Today, as the parents of two children she helped us conceive, I am so thrilled with our choice. Someday, if my kids ask my why we picked her, I have reasons I can explain. And if we ever have the opportunity to meet her, I think I will like her. And I know that I will have nothing but gratitude for the gift she gave us.

Definition of a Parent by The Child Welfare League of America

From the Publication of The Child Welfare League of America : Creating Parenting-Rich Communities. Go to CWLA.org for more info.

Definition of a Parent:

When we use the term "parent", we are referring to biological mothers and fathers
as well as the many different adults who take on the role of raising a child over time.

Regulating Third Party Reproduction in The U.S.

Thanks for the great posts Marna. I started writing this post at 7am ......

The regulations on TPR are what I fear the most. Was it only a year or so ago a bill was voted down in MO that would have had donors listed on birth certificates (same person who proposed taking away school lunches from the poor kids over the summer, let them go work at mc d's and get fed there and work for it)?

Life is and will be hard enough for our kids without having to deal with the idea that their conception was wrong, bad, no longer available because-well,I overslept and haven't had enough coffee yet to go there.I'm on the train,on my blackberry, and I'm just a regular person trying to make a living and get through the day like everyone else. ABC still can't get anyone to talk publicly about spending a tad more for specific (read-better) donor criteria. I'm not what they're looking for,we used a bargain-basement,anonymous clinic shared-cycle donor (who may have been as smart and attractive as the ivy-leaguer...)

So Marna, please rant away because its the only way to get anyones attention. Your statement about the next 10 yrs is interesting because when I started 8 yrs ago another veteran couple at the time told me that in 20 yrs this will all be no big deal and I still hear people say that. Are we 30 pct there or do we still
have a long way to go and a lot of work to do? The technology has advanced much faster than the public mind-set. We are far from the destigmatization and real acceptance that we deserve.

Thanks again Marna!